James Randi: informative and entertaining. In this video he discusses the archeological evidence, or lack thereof, for Nazareth. Does the fictional status of Nazareth equate to the fictional status of Jesus (and therefore God and salvation)? Yes. I believe it’s just another nail in the coffin.
After the lively discussion I had, I wanted to get my feet wet with some bloggers. Being as easy as it is to find content on WP, I searched for a few minutes and then found this post: To Those Who Say There is No God. It seemed as good as any to dive into, and I opened with the following:
I grew up “spiritual” with no religious training other than the random christianity events for holidays. As an adult, I became a Christian, then got into messianic christianity. Then I rejected christianity and became a Jew. Then I rejected that too. I can’t say with 100% certainty that there is no god, but I’m about as certain as saying there probably aren’t unicorns either.
Ultimately, it was my incessant needs to have questions answered. Religion couldn’t answer them. I found the natural world to provide a better source of understanding the world than a sky man watching me.
It seemed to me this was a fairly tame comment. Also, I’m especially fond of Richard Dawkins’s “unicorn, elves, fairy” comment and was looking for a chance to use it.
I found the site’s owner, Victor, to be pleasant. But then, this other person stepped in – Freedomborn! – which is pretty much where everything went to hell.
So what Proof have you got Jason that there is no God, have you died and come back and so can be so certain there is no God or Heaven or Hell or are you just going by hearsay and your own understanding, as Christians we do have Proof.
Christian Love – Anne
I’ll save you the drudgery of posting that mess here. You can do that if you feel like it. My conclusion from the experience is that religious people (Christians in this case) have problems believing some very basic facts, like facts based on history for example. Coincidentally, history was also a problem for the gal mentioned in the previous post.
After going through the whole experience for several comments I grew tired of it, realizing it was like talking with a dog. Which leads me to the question, in a roundabout way, but I’ll get there…
All of my debates and with various religious people in the past were useful because I used the Bible and spoke with them around a common authority. But now I speak to people from a different reference point, like when I would talk with Christians about Judaism – it’s nearly impossible because it centers around Jesus and their interpretation of the Tanakh as it relates to the New Testament. Unless you can get them to speak from a common reference point, there’s not going to be any eye-to-eye discussion.
Is it then worthwhile to talk with Christians about atheism? I enjoy discussing religion – it’s still probably one of my favorite topics – but is it worth it to engage? When you can’t discuss with someone about simple things like historical facts and fossils that anyone can view at their local college/university, how do you have a discussion? What has your experience been?
Thanks for reading.
Last week I got into a conversation with someone about religion. She was a woman of faith and the conversation sprang up when she overheard me saying I am an atheist.
It was the first time I’d spoken with a religious person about my loss and lack of faith. The woman was not only faithful, but the worst kind of faithful. The kind that thinks God talks with her every day, and the kind that thinks you cannot trust the words of man. The same kind that I used to be.
It was terrible. It was terrible because I had not spoken with any religious people about my atheism before and my words were clumsy. It was terrible because the thought patterns are literally insane (I feel this is a valid use because I used to think the same way). It was terrible because it was like looking in a mirror and being on the other side of what it was like to talk with me about different ideas.
There were a couple of amusing moments though. The “You can prove gravity” discussion was used when she argued something about “words of men that can’t be trusted”. “Walk off the roof of the building (4 stories) and see how it goes. Prove god is real by asking him to suspend that law for you.” Which she replied “that’s just like Satan tempting Jesus in the desert!”
But I particularly enjoyed the following exchange:
Me: You think God talks to you?
Her: Yes.
Me: What if he told you to break the window and jump out of the building?
Her: I’d do it.
Me: That’s the kind of thinking that makes people fly planes into buildings.
I decided a few days after this that I did need to talk with religious people more. When I became a Seventh-Day Adventist Christian I spoke a lot with non-christians and also christians of other faiths and became very knowledgable, confident, and capable within that expression of faith.
When I left Adventism to practice messianic Christianity (I refuse to call it Judaism due to its use of voracious lies and deception), I did the same thing again. I again became very knowledgable and confident in that expression of faith. And it was added to what I had already learned – there was little to unlearn.
When I left Christianity to become a Jew I engaged with others again. Wash, rinse, and repeat. In spite of my loss of faith, I still remain comfortable within the identity of Judaism.
Now, that I have been an atheist for probably over a year now, I think it’s time to start the process again.
Unlike my earlier days when I was new to faith, I’m usually a pretty calm guy. I’m comfortable enough in my own skin and beliefs so that there’s plenty of room for other peoples’ opinions without me even batting an eye. That said, this rapture thing has gotten me all worked up in a tizzy. The first and foremost reason it bothers me is I know who started this whole thing. And I hate that it has gained so much attention that even my favorite radio station was talking about it the other morning. Then there’s a flowchart circulating to help you figure out if you’ll need to pick up a white robe today. Finally, this is not even sound practice from an eschatological standpoint—and I’m Jewish, so this is saying a lot about Christian theology. (more…)
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